VPlane and SBus Output

Hi

A customer is using a Neo with Vplane on his jet, set it for SBus output into a power distribution box that can accept Sbus. Everything works but it would seem the gyro correction works like a "heading hold" gyro would work on the tail of a heli.

My question is, when to use for example FC Aileron, CH1 or Aileron as an input in the macrocells as it seems when one select FC Ail as input then the control surface acts like described above.
The macrocell file is available in my cloud for the VBCe as MB339 Jet with date 13 June 2023 (pros1@tiscali.co.za)

Thanks

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter



1 mal bearbeitet. Zuletzt am 14.06.2023 16:24 von Vinger.

Example for inputs:

Aileron = Stick pure.
FC Aileron = Flight Controlled Aileron, see values each bank
CHxx = What is set in the Wingmixer in Setup for this channel, includes FC Ail and Mixers if set there. Includes endpoints, directions and trims there.

So - selecting Chxx - see wingmixer for the mixings and flight parameters for the input to the wingmixer.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Thanks Rainer for the explanation.

I am waiting on a SBus capable distribution box to check the setup myself.

Another question I have is the wingmixer still used when SBus output is selected and FC XXX is used as an input? According to the customer it has no effect on his setup and why would the gyro compensation act in a "heading hold" fashion?

Cheers

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Quote:

According to the customer it has no effect on his setup and why would the gyro compensation act in a "heading hold" fashion?

It is what he has set up in the bank he is at the time testing it. For 100% sure.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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Hi,

can you or he describe in more detail?

I mean, it's normal to have gyro compensation including a small heading hold holding range, around the stick/control surface position.

The integrator works, then, both to maintain the model's direction, slip, angle of attack, and to smoothen the control rates.
But the stick leads, means, all kinds of aggressive maneuvers are possible, without the feel of having to oversteer/fight the gyros.
On the other hand, heading hold makes (almost) hands-off knife edge possible.
And in case you stall the model (by my experience), even a critical model will just drop the nose, it won't necessarily side-slip, because the ailerons for example are correcting in real-time, not the fraction of a second too late a pilot would see/feel it.

Like on a helicopter, it might look weird if the control surfaces don't re-center exactly, but in the air, with the model reacting freely, all is well, and it feels as natural as can be.

Lastly, there's always Bank 1 (by default) without stabilization, so if anything unexpected should happen, you can always go to full-manual with the flick of a switch, to Bank 1 (unless you have dialed in some gain, there, too, enabling the gyros there, too).

—Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi RV/Eddi

He describes it as follows, on the bench, default bank 1 settings, give rudder input and the rudder deflection would stay at full deflection after returning stick to neutral. It will only go back with either an opposite stick input or if he moves the Neo to align with the demanded heading. According to him it happens on aileron and elevator as well.

All banks flight setting are set at default and it happens in bank 2 and 3 as well. I have never seen this in hundreds of Vplane setups except this one uses SBus output to a Advanced Radio Smart Bus RRS power distribution box. The AR box is programmed to throughput all channels as is with zero mixings.

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Hi Peter,

this is strange, and it is definitely not normal.
How is it when he connects servos directly to their respective outputs?

Can you please ask him to save his setups (VPlane and Macrocells separately), and send them, or point to his Cloud where we can find them?

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddie

I only have his Macrocell file and it is attached here as as a zip file, not compressed so just remove the .zip extension. Will get his VPlane file from him soon hopefully.

Cheers and thanks

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Hi Peter,

OK, I'm waiting, makes no sense to check half the information

One more thing: I'm not sure if the update rate (refresh rate) setting for AUX 1 has any effect on S.BUS, or only on PPM for example.

But it could be worth trying to change this. If—for whatever reason—the downstream unit was not able to properly separate the respective signals, all kinds of things could happen. Same for refresh rates, for servos ... if they are too tight, the required gap could be too short.

Does this power distribution box also accept other inputs, like PPM, UDI? For a cross check?

Another test could be, set up one NEO as S.BUS output, connect to another NEO set up to listen to S.BUS, and check what the inputs show, there (use computer software on that one, so you can better see all the gauges, for all the input channels assigned).

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddi

deleted this one as the files was corrupted that the customer send.

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter



1 mal bearbeitet. Zuletzt am 16.06.2023 15:25 von Vinger.

Hi Rainer/Eddi

I have not had the time to check it on a test rig here with another Neo as the SBus receiving unit but will do it later today.

Thanks

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Hi,

I have just tried:

loaded both files onto a NEO VPLane (OK)
Connected to another NEO (Pro+Rescue in this case, and selected S.BUS as an input, assigned all the channels to functions (OK)
... it works, the percentages change on the display, and re-center (all banks, OK)

There's a correlation between the refresh rate and if it works or not: if I dial down (actually, up) the refresh rate from 20 ms (50 Hz), at 6 ms (166 Hz), the receiving unit seemingly can no longer separate the packets, the percentages do no longer change. 7 ms (144 Hz) still seems to work, but I wouldn't bet money on it, what could or could not happen if all channels were operated.

Anyway, it _could_ be that the receiving unit on your customer's jet is not/not properly decoding :-/

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddi

Thanks for the effort. I have also just finished checking it here with another Neo and yes it works as it should. I see that Futabe SBus receivers can be set to NORMAL or HIGH SPEED mode. (no idea what that means)

The power distribution unit can accept 7 to 21 ms SBus input so the Neo output at 20ms is good. Thanks again will wait for the power distribution unit to arrive and do some more testing.

Cheers

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Hi Peter,

'this internet' tells something about 11 ms vs. 7 ms refresh rate or frame rate, NORMAL vs. HIGH SPEED.
I guess that is related to the radio link protocol, not S.Bus, but the information I found on a quick research is not clear.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddi/RV

Did some tests and found that the wingmixer are not used in the SBus output at all. Does this not affect the gyro compensation on the channels?

It seems as if the compensation travel is coupled to the travel of the channels in the wingmixer. As all endpoints and centre points are set for each flight surface in the macrocells but the compensation uses the 100-0-100 throw in the wingmixer and makes no sense to me. There are no possibility to set throws via the wingmixer at all as they have no effect on the flight controls.
Is this the way it was designed?

Cheers

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Hi Peter,

S.BUS (Macrocells E1XX et seqq.) use what you set as inputs.

If e.g. Aileron, just the stick.
If e.g. FC Ail, stick + stabilization (Flight Parameters Aileron)
If e.g. CH2, everything which calculates into that physical output, everything from the wing mixer, or if set up that way, sequence of other macrocells. This actually clones the physical output.

S.BUS is just a carrier, the inputs make it do what it does.

In other words:
_Aileron_ (stick) is the control input for FC Ail.
_FC Ail_ for example is the control+stabilization input for the wing mixer, for CH2, which is then tweaked inside the wing mixer (throw, center, direction, mix amount, throttle and differential mix; long tap, all the additional mixers).
_CH2_ is the result, physical output, where you usually connect a servo.
So if you want to route that calculated servo signal through S.BUS, you have to select that as an input, for the respective S.BUS channel.

This way, you can choose what to relay through S.BUS, just the stick, stick+stabilization, or everything, depending on what the subsequent electronics do ... I mean, could also be a full fledged flight control, where you only need the stick inputs, or something in between.
Other example, landing gear, some blackboxes only need a switching channel 0/100 % (retracted/deployed), some need an anlog channel where you can set the servo throws and program your own delay etc., for example.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.



2 mal bearbeitet. Zuletzt am 22.06.2023 09:14 von Eddi E. aus G..

Hi Eddi

Thanks for the explanation. I am still confused where you mention

_FC Ail_ for example is the control+stabilization input for the wing mixer, for CH2, which is then tweaked inside the wing mixer (throw, center, direction, mix amount, throttle and differential mix; long tap, all the additional mixers).

So selecting CHxx (which now has a FC component to it) as input, the wingmixer is still in play and the endpoints, centre points etc should still be adjusted in the wingmixer, but they have no effect if one does try to adjust parameters there. Must the wingmixer values just be left at deafualt 100-0-100?

The customer has experience a near unflyable jet when selecting bank 2 or 3 as the gyro compensation seems to be full throws as dictated by the 100-0-100 settings in the wingmixer.

Sorry for all the questions but this is the first time I need to work with the SBus output in Vplane. Normal one, two or even three VBar Vplane setups I understand and is a breeze to setup and then trust the setup.

Cheers

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Hi Peter,

honestly, I've never used it in real life (and why ) but what I try to explain is how it works, how it's supposed to work.

CHXX is the full output to the servo, from the wing mixer. All calculations done, servo pulse.

So if you select that, you get the exact same output as on CHXX on the (master) VBar (also with Interbus, on an Extender NEO).
With a channel cell on CHYY, you can then tweak that output (center, limits, direction).
With a curve cell, you could even linearize, to some extent.

FC Ail has only the flight control (stabilization or not, settings in Flight Parameters, Expo, Agility etc.).

Making (significant, noticeable) changes to the Wing Mixer must be noticeable also on the 'cloned' output, other servo connector, or through S.BUS.

In the Wing Mixer, you set up your respective control surfaces individually, CH2 aileron different than CH3 aileron, direction, center, limits.
If you leave those values at default, you do your limiting at the channel cell (e.g. E1CH2), but then, you'd have to work in two places, should you want to change anything.
I'd always use the Setup first (and only) if possible, only use Macrocells for tasks I can not complete there.

I can not tell what's possibly wrong in your customer's setup, particularly the heading hold issue.

What model and blackbox is it exactly? Maybe we can read up something.
Is it S.BUS, or maybe S.BUS2? The protocols are slightly different. A VBar can decode S.BUS2, but it will bring up error messages, because the data packets are different. Another system might do strange things ... and VBar is S.BUS only, we see no need to extend to S.BUS2 (S.BUS+Telemetry), since there's no use for it, with the data at hand.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddi

It is definitely SBus and it is a Powerbox product but I do not know the exact model.

In further testing my side I have found that the servo output via the macrocells are not adjusted by the wingmixer as when in setup to adjust the wingmixer values the macrocells are suspended to get the raw output so there are no way to adjust the servos from the wingmixer to set throws, centre point and direction. The servos simply does not respond at all when setup mode is active.

Would it then be necessary to plug the servos into the Neo to adjust the wingmixer values and then back into the Powerbox to adjust and set the macrocells?

Thanks

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Quote:

I have found that the servo output via the macrocells are not adjusted by the wingmixer as when in setup to adjust the wingmixer values the macrocells are suspended to get the raw output so there are no way to adjust the servos from the wingmixer to set throws, centre point and direction. The servos simply does not respond at all when setup mode is active.

Well ... i say: Impossible. But - as my glassbowl is currently under maintenance ... we need facts. Add Screenshots and setup please.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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RV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have found that the servo output via the
> macrocells are not adjusted by the wingmixer as
> when in setup to adjust the wingmixer values the
> macrocells are suspended to get the raw output so
> there are no way to adjust the servos from the
> wingmixer to set throws, centre point and
> direction. The servos simply does not respond at
> all when setup mode is active.
>
> Well ... i say: Impossible. But - as my glassbowl
> is currently under maintenance ... we need facts.
> Add Screenshots and setup please.

Maybe your glass bowl did need the maintenance LOL

MB339.zip was already attached a few posts ago. Thanks Rainer

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter



1 mal bearbeitet. Zuletzt am 02.07.2023 04:37 von Vinger.

The Answer was given here:

Quote:

If e.g. Aileron, just the stick.
If e.g. FC Ail, stick + stabilization (Flight Parameters Aileron)
If e.g. CH2, everything which calculates into that physical output, everything from the wing mixer, or if set up that way, sequence of other macrocells. This actually clones the physical output.

E.g. Check MC13. Set Ch3 as Input instead FC Ail !!!

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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RV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Answer was given here:
>
> If e.g. Aileron, just the stick.
> If e.g. FC Ail, stick + stabilization (Flight
> Parameters Aileron)
> If e.g. CH2, everything which calculates into that
> physical output, everything from the wing mixer,
> or if set up that way, sequence of other
> macrocells. This actually clones the physical
> output.
>
>
> E.g. Check MC13. Set Ch3 as Input instead FC Ail
> !!!

Thanks Rainer. My problem is one cannot adjust the servos while in the wingmixer as the MCs are not in play then. So all wingmixer servo parameters were left at 100-0-100 and if you then use the CHxx or FCxx as input for a macrocell to get the SBus channel to work the gyro compensation is at full throw and leads to a nearly unflyable aircraft in default Bank 2 and 3.

So how does one adjust the wingmixer to correct values for a SBus setup?

Cheers

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

So - i am out with this S.Bus thing - i just connected a servo directly. Eddie checked the S.Bus with our possibilities and all seems to be as it should.

Quote:

So how does one adjust the wingmixer to correct values for a SBus setup?

There is no difference.

I would just do one thing to check:

- connect a servo to a unused socket of the VBar
- set up a CH MC at this output which simply grabs the regarding MC who drives the S.Bus
- see if this behaviour is shown on the servo or only at the box

Anyway - i don't have planes, i don't have such a box - it is all guessing around, we might get to a point where we run out of ideas w/o having all the items on the bench.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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Hi Peter,

Quote:

me
How is it when he connects servos directly to their respective outputs?

I'm not sure this has been tried yet.

If you can set up a servo on CH2 for example, and adjust it using the wing mixer, the same servo output will be given to any target (other physical output, or S.BUS) if CH2 is chosen as the respective input.
This, you can also verify if you e.g. connect another servo to CH4, for a test, and select CH2 as its input, in a channel cell, with no other changes to it. If it mirrors the servo on CH2, case proven.

Quote:

Vinger
I have also just finished checking it here with another Neo and yes it works as it should.

What exactly did you check?

I mean, if connected via S.BUS, source VBar outputting said CH2 to it's E1CH2 for example, target VBar preferably with VBasic firmware without much in the way of mixing, and if a servo there mirrors the one one the source VBar, case proven.

I guess there are two kinks in it which need to be figured out and resolved, one, choose the proper input signal, and second, find out why a servo connected to the PowerBox seems to act as if it had heading hold to it ...

My preferred way of attacking such a problem is, start over with a new setup and deleted macrocells, set up a basic model with servos connected to the VBar VLink, if in doubt try mirroring functions there, then make significant changes to the wing mixer so I know it affects both servos connected alike, so i know it works in principle and what to expect, then continue from there (e.g. with Extender if homogeneous VBar, or with another device behind, e.g. via S.BUS.

—Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Eddi E. aus G. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Peter,
>
> How is it when he connects servos directly to
> their respective outputs?
>
> I'm not sure this has been tried yet.
>
> If you can set up a servo on CH2 for example, and
> adjust it using the wing mixer, the same servo
> output will be given to any target (other physical
> output, or S.BUS) if CH2 is chosen as the
> respective input.
> This, you can also verify if you e.g. connect
> another servo to CH4, for a test, and select CH2
> as its input, in a channel cell, with no other
> changes to it. If it mirrors the servo on CH2,
> case proven.

The problem with this approach is that there are two aileron, two elevator, two flap and rudder servos. The reason for using the SBus output is to use one Neo for numerous channels. It might seem as if this round about way might work, but what about the SBus servo port used as output (Aux 1).


> I have also just finished checking it here with
> another Neo and yes it works as it should.
>
> What exactly did you check? could obviously only check if there are output on the SBus to the Neo with heli firmware, no way to check all the channels or movement, still once in wingmixer the servo movement in PC software stopped. All I meant was that your idea to check for servo movement was to use the Neo set to SBus input.
>
> I mean, if connected via S.BUS, source VBar
> outputting said CH2 to it's E1CH2 for example,
> target VBar preferably with VBasic firmware
> without much in the way of mixing, and if a servo
> there mirrors the one one the source VBar, case
> proven.
>
> I guess there are two kinks in it which need to be
> figured out and resolved, one, choose the proper
> input signal, and second, find out why a servo
> connected to the PowerBox seems to act as if it
> had heading hold to it ...
>
> My preferred way of attacking such a problem is,
> start over with a new setup and deleted
> macrocells, set up a basic model with servos
> connected to the VBar VLink, if in doubt try
> mirroring functions there, then make significant
> changes to the wing mixer so I know it affects
> both servos connected alike, so i know it works in
> principle and what to expect, then continue from
> there (e.g. with Extender if homogeneous VBar, or
> with another device behind, e.g. via S.BUS.
>
> —Eddi

I have started over many times, as soon as SBus output is activated the wingmixer setup are not possible and then ignored even if you have changed settings in the wingmixer. Sorry for all the back and forth but all this makes no sense to me as it basically means that SBus output for Vplane cannot be used safely. Maybe I am wrong or maybe not.

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Ahmmm ... one of my clubmates use S.Bus as option for a S.Bus to Servo converter too. And it works there as well as it works with a 2nd VBar (set up as S.Bus 3rd radio VBar) on Eddies checks.

Quote:

There is no difference.

I would just do one thing to check:

- connect a servo to a unused socket of the VBar
- set up a CH MC at this output which simply grabs the regarding MC who drives the S.Bus
- see if this behaviour is shown on the servo or only at the box

Did you try this? What happened then?

Does this "box" have the real Futaba protocol implemented (sign a Agreement Letter with Futaba and get the original spec like we did) or just "Reengineered"?

Is there a manual available? Link?

Does it have a Input monitor?

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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If it is such one:

https://boomarc.com/Product_Instructions/SmoothFlite1.02.pdf

They advertise as S.Bus in the shops - but Manual (p.63, Spec) states S.Bus2 .... other Name ... other Protocol.

Try SUMD there which could be our UDI (if Graupner still uses the definition we made)

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

Für Posts und Antworten bitte einen PC und eine richtige Taststaur benutzen sowie alle Fragen vollständig abarbeiten. Nehmt Euch Zeit, beantwortet Rückfragen in Ruhe und vollständig.
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This is the power distribution in use. There are only SBus selectable as input. SBus2 is Futaba's telemetry bus. No gyros in this box. Channel assignment as per Futaba SBus protocol. Single Neo with VPlane and set to SBus output at AUX1 connected to the RX input of the unit.

https://www.powerbox-systems.com/uploads/tx_pbsdocuments/4520_Champion-SRS_en.pdf

The servos all work perfectly after the Exxx macrocells have been set. Obviously no servo control unless this is done.

As with all the other VPlane setups I have done, start with wingmixer to set the flight controls endpoints, directions and centre point, BUT not possible as the servos are not controlled when you are in the wingmixer and SBus output is selected.

Yes servos can be plugged in directly to the Neo (except Aux1) and one can do the wingmixer setup. NOW, go to macrocell setup and do the Exxxx cells with CHxx inputs. All still good here and seems to work. Flaps down will also not change the elevator centre point as per wingmixer setup.

The problem is that it seems as if the wingmixers settings are NOT in use when SBus output is active. No matter what the wingmixer settings are or changed it does not alter the servo settings through the SBus to the Powerbox unit. One can adjust the AGILITY, GAINS etc in the flight settings and they work, BUT where the Neo should use the wingmixer values to drive gyro compensation it only uses the full 100-0-100 travel and shows large deflections on servos when you move the Neo in bank 2 and 3. This is with default gain settings for the banks. This makes the aircraft unflyable in bank 2 and 3.

I have now rinsed and repeated this setup so many times with complete resets in between, but the outcome is always the same.

The customer wants to only use the one Neo and although an Extender setup without the power box, would work perfectly as I have done this for him as well.

Last thing for me to try would be to set a MC channel cell at each flight control channel and use that to drive the Exxx cells for SBus out and test that. Setup of this channel cells and wingmixer will be done WITHOUT Sbus output selected and SBUS output will only be activated AFTER the flight controls have been set to suit the install.

Thanks again for the help RV and EDDi

Will update

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Quote:

I have never seen this in hundreds of Vplane setups except this one uses SBus output to a Advanced Radio Smart Bus RRS power distribution box. The AR box is programmed to throughput all channels as is with zero mixings.

When i google for:

Advanced Radio Smart Bus RRS

I got the manual linked above.

Is it really true that he does have a "Power Box" and not the "Advanced Radio" box named at the beginning of the thread?

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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