Feature request - low RPM alarm

This is not a high priority at all....just a feature that may save a few helis.

A couple years ago I was flying my Logo690 in a low speed configuration when I had an ESC shutdown. I had an external BEC, however I was flying at the same time as nitro planes and couldn't hear my heli at all. I didn't know I had a shutdown until I saw the rotor disk was slowing. By that time it was too late and could only watch the heli fall as I lost all control authority.

What I propose is to add an RPM alarm setting. It would only be active in the "motor run" switch position. You would set a user selectable tolerance RPM ( say 200 ) and if the RPM dropped more than tolerance value below your target headspeed, you would get an alarm on the VControl. Just like the low rpm warning on a real heli! I don't think this has ever been implemented on model helis before? Knowing you had lost power sooner would allow for a successful auto. To deactivate the alarm, you would just set the tolerance value to 0.

Just throwing it out there Thanks for listening.

KevinB

Why not just use the voltage alarm?


Stephan

In my 690's case, there was no voltage problem so a voltage alarm wouldn't have helped. An RX voltage warning option already exists on the VControl.

KevinB

Simple thing - and way better:

The ESC shuts down in case of getting too hot.

Use a external temp sensor shrinked to the ESC heat sink or a ESC with integrated VBar Control Telemetry (Kontronik, Scrorpion) - and set the temp alerts ;-)

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Very interesting idea and safety / rescue features.


I had the same issue as Kevin when you can’t hear the RPM due to noise from other flyers. Mine was the Lipo died another occasion the esc. That would definitely helped as monitor for the RPM when the Motor is on and RPM deviate 200 or 300 more RPM.

Regards,
Marco

For the two forced autos I've had with my 690, the one described above...I still don't know the cause of. There were no errors in the vbar logs and no error beeps on the ESC. I used both the ESC and battery packs on a different heli after this with no further problems. The 690 is still flying with the same NEO as well.

The second forced auto was due to a broken solder joint on the ESC circuit board (the replacement ESC installed after the first shutdown.......I love my 690 but I haven't had the greatest of luck with it!).

Neither loss of motor power was due to temperature, battery voltage, or RX failsafe. That's why I was wondering if an RPM warning could be implemented since the VControl is already measuring and displaying RPM....a threshold warning wouldn't be a big stretch since it is already implemented for Rx voltage, Main Battery voltage, various temperature sensors, etc.

Thanks,

KevinB

That's a great idea Kevin! I have seen the same situation a couple of times, the only difference is they don't have a Vcontrol lol... Although with a feature available like this it might be another selling point to get them to move across....

Bump. Just raising this again as I've seen two more possible incidents on the forums where an RPM warning could have helped save someone from a crash.

Thanks,
KevinB

Perhaps a winter add-in for next spring's flying season?

KevinB

Perhaps a xmas/new year's day surprise? Or included in the next annual major update?? Throw me a bone!

If you add the low-rpm alarm capability, I'll buy a second VControl???

KevinB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2017 02:31AM by KevinB.

Small feature with big impact

If the goal will be to land w/o damaging batteries - this is simple and still there and way better than any thoughts above.

Please use our battery management including also the battery saver capacity calculation (aging effects will be considered) togehter with a Scorpion or Kontronik or (new) YGE ESC or a UI Sensor - as best with battery ID of course.

http://www.vstabi.info/en/node/1696

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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Hi Rainer,

if I get it right it's about the fact that you sometimes do not hear the rather quiet LOGOs when nitros or turbines or other loud aircraft are around, so you only notice too late.

But I guess it's not that simple because on electrics, we usually only know the rpm signal from the ESC, not the head speed, can't tell if that signal drops or cuts out properly if e.g. the ESC stops without command, for whatever reason.

And then, you only gain a fraction of a second, but on the other hand you know what's going on and might be able to save it, or at least minimize the damage.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Eddi E. aus G. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Rainer,
>
> if I get it right it's about the fact that you
> sometimes do not hear the rather quiet LOGOs when
> nitros or turbines or other loud aircraft are
> around, so you only notice too late.
>

Thanks Eddi, that's what it is when you can't hear your Logo that you get an alarm if the RPM dropped by 300rpm for instance.

Cheers Marco



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2017 10:04AM by MarcoSc.

Sorry guys ..

A Headspeed drop is a follow-up from undervoltage due too much load or empty battery or also a bit of both ...

A empty battery can be detected using our capacity management includig aging effects - way better than flying unless it starts to die. If you fly unless the HS drops too much - the battery is possibly pre-damaged. So this won't be a good idea.

But - using our Battery management and the Battery saver panel - there is a value to set warning thresholds for each single battery (cell voltage) and the sampling time. This is what you need as "Last instance" - keep in mind that a HS drop is a follow up from low Voltage - so it is probably best to monitor the Voltage if you need.

I tried around with this personally under different conditions (voltage vs. ambient temperature and flying style) - and figured out that the only thing you need is the capacity management including the 2 saver values for the aging calculation.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2017 10:23AM by RV.

Hi,

I beg to differ:

Quote:

KevinB
A couple years ago I was flying my Logo690 in a low speed configuration when I had an ESC shutdown. I had an external BEC,

If the ESC shuts down for whatever reason (temperature, out of commutation, a glitch, a broken soldering joint, over-current for example) _and_ you have a backup receiver power supply or an external BEC to keep the ship in control, the battery management alone doesn't help.

It's a rare situation, but if it was possible to define a sensible threshold and issue a warning, I could understand that pilots would like to have that as a further aid. Although I think if that happens, there are more cases where you wouldn't be able to save the model anyway, too little time to properly react, but if you are high enough and in a safe flying envelope, you probably could.

Anyway, if e.g. the gear train broke, the motor would still be steaming on, so you wouldn't notice until it was too late anyway, unless you had a magnet sensor on the main gear for example, which is spinning at the actual head speed.

Best,

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Quote:

Eddi E. aus G.
if e.g. the gear train broke, the motor would still be steaming on, so you wouldn't notice until it was too late anyway, unless you had a magnet sensor on the main gear for example, which is spinning at the actual head speed.

Yes, I realize that a RPM warning based on the RPM that the VControl is normally reporting (based on the motor/esc) would not work in this situation. Generally when you lose a gear though, it makes enough noise to tell what is happening.
So far, all of my failures have been due to ESC shutdown. All have been high enough that I could have saved it if I knew I had lost power before starting to see "blades" instead of "disk". If you are just cruising at altitude, an rpm warning could give you a number of seconds, not fractions, to dump the collective and begin the recovery. Once you start seeing "blades", you also losing all your cyclic control about the same time...and then it's game over. On my last 690 esc shutdown I just watched the heli fall 100 ft into the outfield because my cyclic control was lost and it rolled on its side. I have a 690 canopy that is perfect one side and looks like a smashed egg on the other.

My original intent on raising this was that it would be an easy thing to implement since the VBC is already displaying the RPM. The functionality is already there for battery voltage/capacity warnings. I didn't think it would be much to add a page to allow setting of a threshold and enabling an alarm for RPM.

Sure, it wouldn't come into play that often, but if it's not too hard to implement and can save a few people's helis, isn't it worth it? Plus, it would be another feature that no other FBL system currently has.

Thanks Eddi for clarifying the situation. How about it Rainer ???

Thanks for listening. Merry Christmas!

KevinB

well - which ESC is it and why does it shut down?
Overtemp?
in this case - we have a temperature warning panel for Scorpion, Kontronik and YGE with integrated telemetry ....

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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Two different YGE 160HV ESCs. The first time, I never could find the reason. There was no beep code from the esc at the crash site so it wasn't a temp or voltage issue. I used that esc on my 550sx after and it worked fine. Perhaps static was the cause? There was nothing in the VBar logs either.

The second time was faulty solder connections to components on the circuit board under the nameplate.
Like I said before....I like my 690sx, but I've had the worst luck with it.


One other possible use for this rpm warning app could be to help you smooth out your flying style . Set the warning threshold for just 100 or 200rpm below target. Then try and fly your routine without setting off the warning!

KevinB

To keep it simple:

It wil be at least way better using the warnings from the latest telemetry based ESC's than fiddeling around with follow-ups. We will see on a redesign in future here what the ESCs delivering and what is useful for the pilot.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

Für Posts und Antworten bitte einen PC und eine richtige Taststaur benutzen sowie alle Fragen vollständig abarbeiten. Nehmt Euch Zeit, beantwortet Rückfragen in Ruhe und vollständig.
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Für Einzelkommunikation bitte ausschließlich Email verwenden! - PN, Messenger, Chat usw. werden nicht bearbeitet.
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Thanks for the info Rainer. I'll wait to see what that looks like before raising this topic again. Hopefully, the changes will provide a workable solution.

KevinB

another example of a crash that may have been avoided?

Here is a link to yet another thread where having an RPM warning app could have been the extra second or two the pilot needed to make a successful auto. By the time you 'feel' the control response going away, it's too late. Again, the logs show no reasons for the sudden loss of motor power.


Any update on when the ESC telemetry redesign mentioned above might be available? Thanks,

KevinB

Using a Tribunus ESC you can set the protection limits in the ESC will will drop the rpm to a user set value and this you will notice, protection limits on voltage, mAH, temp and current.

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

I hope that is not what Rainer was referring to Vinger. That has nothing to do with this feature request.

I am requesting the ability to receive a warning at the VControl when RPM starts to decrease below the governor's target head speed....for ANY reason. All the ESC warnings you listed CAUSE a head speed drop.

I would like to be notified as soon as head speed (OR motor speed) starts to drop under target. For that matter, even a LOW AMP warning would probably suffice??? Once you initially surpassed the warning threshold (ie 10A? make it user selectable), if all of a sudden the amp draw was <10 A, you have lost motor power for some reason. The sooner a pilot knows that, the sooner they can begin the auto-rotation and the more likely they will save their bird or at least minimize the damage.

KevinB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2018 01:50PM by KevinB.

Kevin it is strange that your request seems to be misinterpreted.

Even on a nitro with loud models around me I could not hear that the engine had gone to idle.

Having talking telemetry is almost there with this feature but instead of a switch a parameter to initiate telling the user the head speed.

RV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To keep it simple:
>
> It wil be at least way better using the warnings
> from the latest telemetry based ESC's than
> fiddeling around with follow-ups. We will see on a
> redesign in future here what the ESCs delivering
> and what is useful for the pilot.


It's been 6 months since this last reply. Any updates on when this redesign may be occurring? Not looking for specifics..... planned within the next year ? longer ?

Thanks.
KevinB