Nitro and Temperature Sensor

Hello Guys,

we are currently thinking over do add a temperature sensor for Nitros to our telemetry.

So - at this point - i have some questions:

1) where might be the best place for a sensor?
2) which temperature limits will detect a motor running too rich/lean?

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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More Pics ...

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Hi RV,

I'm no nitro expert but here's my 2 cents...

1. Where the crankcase meets the head. This is probably the hottest part of the engine and where I would check temp with a heat gun.
2. Hard to assign a "one size fits all" range... will vary based on engine, fuel, season, etc... Rich engines are cold < ~140F, Lean engines run hot > ~190F

Normally, I would just put my finger on the back of the backplate to check temp... shouldn't be more than ~ 120F.

Brandon has it nailed Rainer, where the crankcase meets the head.

As for temperature stay on the safe side around 120

My thoughts too.

Hi Rainer,

I would love to see a backplate temperature sensor. Something that looks similar to the Spektrum RPM backplate sensor would be unique.
I tune my engines based off of the "feel" of the backplate itself, so if I could set it up to alert me if it gets above a certain temperature on the backplate, that would be really cool :-)

Kyle

Kyle Stacy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Rainer,
>
> I would love to see a backplate temperature
> sensor. Something that looks similar to the
> Spektrum RPM backplate sensor would be unique.
> I tune my engines based off of the "feel" of the
> backplate itself, so if I could set it up to alert
> me if it gets above a certain temperature on the
> backplate, that would be really cool :-)
>
> Kyle

Another great idea.

Hello Kyle,

well - the sensor itself can be fixed at different locations of course. But the guys may ask which temperature limits should be set up in all the possible locations.

So - how much is it on the backplate on your helis as max?

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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I have currently fixed it below the cylinder head, near the exhaust and in the slipstream of the fan. This gives me approximately (20°C ambient) 50°C in idle, 100°C in 1800 hover and flying - and 120°C in 2000 - hover and flying with a fast response (used some high temperature silicone to get a better heat transmission).

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2016 09:12PM by RV.

Brandon Gaither Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi RV,
>
> I'm no nitro expert but here's my 2 cents...
>
> 1. Where the crankcase meets the head. This is
> probably the hottest part of the engine and where
> I would check temp with a heat gun.
> 2. Hard to assign a "one size fits all" range...
> will vary based on engine, fuel, season, etc...
> Rich engines are cold < ~140F, Lean engines run
> hot > ~190F
>
> Normally, I would just put my finger on the back
> of the backplate to check temp... shouldn't be
> more than ~ 120F.


This....

I prefer a international standard (also signed by US - as well as meters and kilos - you guys are strange in such things!) dimension for the info - i can't imagine what e.g. 120°F is. If Mr. Fahrenheit would be still alive - i definitley would kill him ;-(

120°F = 49°C
140°F = 60°C
190°F = 88°C

Anyway - this can never be the hottest spot with the fastest temperature change on a motor. Must be "somewhere" on the crankcase. Not very useful to detect lean running motors before destroying them.

My Temps are:

Ambient = 20°C = 68°F
Idle = 50°C = 122°F
1800 = 100°C = 212°F
2000 = 120°C = 248°F

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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RV..
Sorry I am late to the game on this one but...

looking at the most recent pic with the sensor installed, I see the two wires coming out of the head on the exhaust side of the engine. Assuming the sensor it self is located midway between where each of the two wires exit the head in the picture, would that not put the sensor itself on the opposite side of the head from the exhaust? I don't have a good look at the sensor itself before you installed it but it looks much like all the ones I use on my gas engines. on all my installs to get the sensor precisely on the exhaust side of the cylinder the two wires come out on the opposite side of the exhaust.

My gas motors run between 117C and 192C

Very glad to see this testing taking place. It will be a very nice addition to the Vcontrol Telemetry

Doug,

some more photos ... it isn't a "sling" sensor because this one was to big for the OS 55 here - so is decided to use another, smaller type.

(The sensor is additionally fixed with teperature resistant silicone to get a better heat connection)

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2016 10:01PM by RV.

Just to add, the backplate is going to give you a sign to whether or not the engine is too hot or not. You should be able to put your finger on the backplate after a flight and not have it be too hot to touch. Rather, you should be able to leave it there for a little bit. I can get some temperatures from my 700 and give you some sort of range(at idle, after a full flight, etc.). Oddly enough, yesterday I was flying the heli and noticed that something was wrong and when I landed, the engine was too hot, come to find out the glow plug was really loose. This telemetry will be able to watch the temps go up concurrently with issues that may be occurring, which could lead to being able to save the engine from destruction. Glad to see this telemetry being implemented.

Jesse Kavros Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to add, the backplate is going to give you a
> sign to whether or not the engine is too hot or
> not. You should be able to put your finger on the
> backplate after a flight and not have it be too
> hot to touch. Rather, you should be able to leave
> it there for a little bit. I can get some
> temperatures from my 700 and give you some sort of
> range(at idle, after a full flight, etc.). Oddly
> enough, yesterday I was flying the heli and
> noticed that something was wrong and when I
> landed, the engine was too hot, come to find out
> the glow plug was really loose. This telemetry
> will be able to watch the temps go up concurrently
> with issues that may be occurring, which could
> lead to being able to save the engine from
> destruction. Glad to see this telemetry being
> implemented.


This. It's not like they vary too much during the flight. Should arrive at a certain temperature and stay there (within reason). And a low temperature alarm would not be necessary for sure. If we could set it up like the GPS telemetry (such as replacing the timer with this reading), we can just look down at the transmitter to see, if it's too low then the engine is too rich. And a beep or voice readout if it gets above a certain select temperature. I can check mine in a few weeks after I get home from this few week trip. But my temperatures are going to be pretty much the same as Jesse's (same engine also).

Kyle

OK - i thought it this way:

- Limit for Alarm (must be exceeded for some seconds of course) in 5°C steps from 0 up to 250°C / °F is displayed too
- Alarm type (same as RC Voltage App, beep, voice, voice and beep, 3 vibration types)
- Current and max Temp is displayed in a info screen (like UI Sensor)
- Current and max Temp can also be displayed in a custom design main screen
- possibly (will try that) a selectable relation between ambient and alarm temperature (no readjustment for cold/hot days)

So - at the end - it is the users choice where the sensor is mounted and which limits are set. This will be useful for all positions ;-)

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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One last thing that may be helpful, is initial temperature. It would be nice to know what it started out at( can just be put as a value in the info screen like you suggested). It is not needed, its just nice to have is all.

I believe I have some thermistors here at work that I could probably use to test the backplate temperatures if you had a rough interface that I could test with.


Jesse

Ok so I got a flight off today.

Engine: YS91SRX
Glow Plug: Enya #3
Fuel: Byron 30%
Headspeed: 1980

All temperatures were checked on the backplate, forward of the pressure nipple.

Ambient Engine Temp(Engine backplate temp before starting it): 84^oF - 28.9^oC
Idle Temp(Let engine run for about a minute): 95.5^oF - 35.3^oC
After Flight Temp: 104^oF - 40^oC

I hope this helps Rainer, let me know if you need anymore data!

It would be nice if the sensor had somekind of screw hole. I dont like the idea of glueing things in place.

Some glue can be used to transfer heat but i dont like to fix things with it.

What do you think?

I would not test the temp at the back plate! Its the part of the engine that heats up the slowest period. I have been building 2 stroke race motors for karts and dirt bikes since I was 13 over 30 years now. The head and cylinder are by far the most critical parts. The crank will not seize the piston will. The piston enlarges from heat and that's when things get bad. So you need to monitor the head temp not the back plate. This will also allow you to tune your motor to its max power band. By testing the back plate the delta t is to large from the head temp.

Robert

Quote:

It would be nice if the sensor had somekind of screw hole.

I kept it in place with the strap on the helicopter frame.

Quote:

Ambient Engine Temp(Engine backplate temp before starting it): 84oF - 28.9oC
Idle Temp(Let engine run for about a minute): 95.5oF - 35.3oC
After Flight Temp: 104oF - 40oC

OK - they seem to be very close to each other - i think it isn't a "clear" state here for alarms etc.

I also agree with Robert - and prefer my measuring spot. This has a faster change rate and also more differencies so it can be set up with clear alarms.

Anyway - everyone would be able to fix the sensor as and where he likes.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Found a diagram here:

Opti Fuel Info

My OS55 runs at 120-130°C (Optifuel low Smoke 30% Nitro) - and the ZG26 (Vario Acrobatic, Gasser) at 140-150°C - both measured as close as possible to the cylinder haead.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2016 06:37PM by RV.

When I was using the Futaba telemetry with my 18mz, I had the 'loop/sling' Thermistor mounted exactly as Doug Darby mentioned. The active part was below the head, but above the exhaust port, and the wires went both sides like a lasso. I used a high thermal conductivity paste just where the sensor touched the alloy between the fins.

(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/191435017470?lpid=122&chn=ps&googleloc=9045573&poi=&campaignid=207297426&device=c&adgroupid=13585920426&rlsatarget=aud-133395220626%3Apla-156022130226&adtype=pla&crdt=0)

Usually my head temps were between 115-130C

Thanks for the info. The temperatures seem to be similar to mine here - so i know we are good at this point.

A sling design isn't our first choice because this is a universal sensor. So someone with a electric heli may be using it for battery or motor temperature monitoring.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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I really think this sensor may be easier to "add on" to a motor than the sling sensor.

Hi, any updates on how this is going? This feature would have saved my YS91 on Saturday when my gov stuck, and what appeared and sounded good around the mid needle, I got loss of fuel on the high needle, so instant lean run. The smoke and sound of the mid masked the lean run at high end.

22/23L of nitro through that motor in the last month on my Goblin Nitro, and in less than 1min I destroyed the piston, ring, liner and conrod!

This could have been instantly detected with the temp sensor I was running with my Futaba tx before I swapped to the VC.

Thanks, Rob Bingham

Hi Guys
Any further updates guys?
Kindly let me know.
thanks
Kind regards
D

Any news?

Hi,

working on it, with a supplier. During summer things are a little bit slower

Cheers

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Any updates?

Hi,

not yet I'm afraid.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.