TALY control in logo 200?

Hello,

I have found a video of a guy explaining the TALY control the OMP M1 heli has and also the newer versions of the M2 (the ones produced after July/August 2020).

Here is the link to the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAyvxUjANQw

The guy who upload the video defines TALY as follow: TALY = Torque Assisted Left Yaw. As you know the direct driven tail rotor has just one way authority. The conventional tail rotor can rotate the helicopter left and right. So the direct driven tail rotor can't turn the helicopter to the left if the main rotor (motor) is unloaded there's no way for the helicopter to turn left - the helicopter may unwillingly turn to the right and there's nothing that can stop that. To overcome this problem they introduced the feature to the FC that prevents the main motor to get unloaded - this is done in a way that when there's a situation during the flight that when the motor is starting to be unloaded the FC quickly speeds up the motor's RPM for a brief amount of time so the motor is constantly under load. This feature is extremely important.

I have checked if my Logo 200 have this feature, but it hasn't had, so my question is why Mikado does not implement this feature in the Mini NEO in order the Logo 200 works the tail like the M2. Many people have said the logo 200 lost his tail in ocassions, and now that I have watch this video I am pretty sure this feature will solve that problem.

I know the algorithm could be complicated to be programmed, but as Mikado has an agreement with OMP to produce the Logo 200, may be they can share the algorithm they used in order to be implemented in the mini neo. It doesn't make sense the Logo 200 have worse tail behaviour than the M2 taking into account the M2 is cheaper than the Logo 200.

By the way, last weekend my logo 200 goes very close to me due to a tail lost flying at idle 3 when it was flying straight on in a translation and a moderate wind turns the heli almost 90º.

Regards,
JC

Hi JC,

I was suspecting this TALY thing from the beginning, before it had that name, and test flights with Kyle kind of confirmed it, audibly, and visibly on telemetry.

Problem back then (early M2/200 days) was, it would always increase RPM a tad, to add torque, and it still seems to do that.
To a point where you reach at max. rpm all the time if you continue pushing. Decay seems to be very delayed, and I guess for a reason, because if you would actively unload the main rotor it would be worse than before.

This might hardly or not disturb you if you fly very high rpm all the time, or if you fly certain hard maneuvers than back off a bit, settle, do it again, but if you fly low or medium rpm, and continuously trigger TALY, it becomes irritating and intimidating if the heli does that.

In other words, If the general style of flying only creates such situations randomly, it might not disturb.
But if you push it (and I dare say, those who have blowouts frequently push, and without taking the particularities of the model into account), TALY ups rpm quickly, and eventually keeps it up until there is no more headroom (and then, also no real TALY assist any more, only way to increase torque any higher when rpm is maxed out would be more collective ...).

In my opinion, there's always a tradeoff.

If you you compare the M2 and the 200 back to back, or the original M1 or one converted to NEO, the overall performance of the 'neonized' model is so much better than the original and that in turn seduces you to push even harder
I would never trade the M2's tail for the overall (cyclic, collective, lightness, stability) thing, with the tail somewhat lacking, and only in certain maneuvers which I can –could– learn to fly that tiny bit differently.

—Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

After 13 flights on my Logo 200 i must said that TALY feature would be great deal.

For mild / sport flying most time no problem. With hi rpm and 3d style sometimes when main rotor was unloaded it's will problem.

3 times tail switched to off and only pilot skill save heli from crash because tail rotor off working. Would be great to add TALY as optional feature. Customer can activate or disable TALY option.

May be it's possible to simulate TALY via mixes inside of V Bar Touch or some another way to simulate by param adjustments?

Hi,

no matter how you approach it, it would be more complex than it looks: the governor for example is not designed for such internal dynamic adjustments, which would mean, adjust the requested head speed temporarily, or allow it to temporarily overshoot or increase, in steps, every time it's demanded.

If you had no governor, you could theoretically think about reverse mixing, tail to throttle, but that would have to involve the gyro, because you only want it if the torque radio is adverse. And even though there's no one-way, it's always difficult to reduce rpm again, without interfering with the torque ratio.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, or the it will never-ever happen, but it's also not a top priority.
Better adjust your flying to anticipate and prevent that 'sometimes' situations, or roll with it, add the extra pirouette to your routine and pretend it was intentional

Cheers

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddie, thanks for detail explanation.
We flown my heli by three pilots with different skills. My skills is basic, but another guys is much more skilled pilots.
And three times was be problem with tail rotor sleep to off.
Seems that is not pilot skills problem, but problem with software. Heli was rotated around Yaw and has been hard to controllable at the moment when tail rotor switched to off.
Yes, you can just add more pitch-throttle, but it's very discomfortable and your maneuver can be potential very risked bacause flight area is to close to pilot and other people. Heli is too small for flying far from pilot.
On my eyes is not so good approach especially M2 has TALY feature out of the box.

Im understand that update ESC firmware for old Logo 200 will be problem, but i hope that Mikado will implement TALY feature. Would be great deal!



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2021 07:47AM by Jock_rst.

Hello,

well, we hear you

At the same time, I don‘t want to judge pilot skills, and not only because I‘m a mediocre pilot at best myself.

Still, I think on a scale from basic to pro, there‘s a range where this is prone to happen more frequently: if you can already fly all the maneuvers, and both directions, and aggressively, but if you do not/yet have the feeling for the border area, and can instinctively adjust to it. Or if you don‘t want to …
If I look at the flights from CD, Mirko, Kyle and others, it seems manageable

I‘d prefer the overall flight characteristics of the 200 any time, over the ones with it‘s original electronics, and the fact that it can do everything out of the box, without having to buy it‘s weight worth of $$$ again to make it fly good and powerful.

But again, I concur, it would be great if that last bit was perfect, too.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddie,

Yes, it's awesome heli, flying fantastic and very controllable and stable. I've upgrade Neo to Pro version and disable Anigravity (set Lightness value = 0) and now Logo 200 flying like superb heli!
On my IMO and others pilots, Anitgravity not required if your skills intermediate and even higher, but it's can't be disabled with Express version. So strange case again...
On my eyes TALY much more important feature instead Antigravity. Anti gravity it's good for newbie and very basic skills only. Me voting for the TALY instead Antigravity!

p.s. currently is 23 flights on my Logo 200



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2021 01:57PM by Jock_rst.

Hi Jock,

it’s interesting how different pilots are I find Lightness the best thing since the invention of the wheel because it cures the small one from the (imo) negative effect where you need extreme and quick collective inputs, to prevent the model from the sagging all micros tend to do.

Could be that disabling Lightness and the then required more aggressive collective inputs interfere.

I tend to believe that even intermediate to pro level pilots prefer a neutral and authoritative pitch over thinking ahead and exaggerating their collective inputs. But to each their own

Cheers

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddie,

May be it's possible to fix with expo in pitch curve when stick in neutral position to prevent model from the sagging.

Hi,

that’s what I would call cheap tricks … the sagging is highly dynamic, it happens even if you just do circuits, in windy conditions, depending on how lift is affected. If you work pitch in an already ‘positive’ condition, it’s different than if you work it when you could enter vortex condition.
In a hover, it can make the model feel fidgety, making landings more challenging, unless you use different curves/banks.

Using the sensors on the model, to ‘feel’ a deviation and react to it in an instant, even before you perceive it from your standing position, process it, react to it, that is the fun.
A skilled practiced pilot anticipates / knows what to expect in which flight condition, with which type of helicopter (#taly ;-) so from the outside, it looks like ‘it’s flying like a bigger helicopter’.
But there’s still more stress.
Lightness makes it to me average pilot feel like a bigger helicopter, gives me more confidence.
I didn’t like flying micros outdoors before, because they always felt like being all over the place, even taking off and landing was a challenge, a small gust could change everything, let alone normal wind conditions.
With the 200, I can comfortably do my routine (big air and some 3D) almost no matter what.

Doesn’t mean you have do crank it until you can do flips or rolls on the spot, without working collective, but even a single digit value makes flying so much more relaxed and enjoyable (to me).

Same as flybarless as a flying aid was a huge improvement over the flybar, which was what made model helicopters manageable to the average person at all, in the first place—compared to a rigid / unstabilized rotor head. And tail gyros, don’t forget tail gyros :-)

But of course that’s only my opinion ^^

Cheers

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Yes, you are right Eddie, i will try to adjust Antigravity on my personal taste. Factory default is set to 5 for bank #3. May be value 3 or even 2 would be great for me.

Also next settings was changed:
bank3 rpm to 6060
tail gain to 90

Btw, as not experienced VBC user yet, can i change settings (Lightness, Tail Gain, RPM) during flight? Or need to land, change value, take off?

On second screen (swipe to down) all requred parameters are aviable for adjustemnts just by click.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2021 12:50PM by Jock_rst.

Hi Jock,

good call.

About the tail gain, the 200 with dual motors behaves differently than 'regular helicopters'. We found that with higher head speed, you would increase gain, not reduce, while you would reduce when using lower head speeds.

You can change settings during flight, just be careful. Best way would be, use the modify parameters App, where you can assign parameters to rotary inputs and even select if the change is relative to the currently saved value, or absolute (related to the position of the rotary input), and where you can limit the range.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Great info! I have mistaken and reducing Tail Gain value with increased rpm. Im adjust TG values within next weekend flights





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2021 06:43PM by Jock_rst.

19 flights on Logo 200 per one day. Stock settings. And again tail issue with fast backward flight:

Issue you can see 1:20 mins

https://youtu.be/eQVKGPfH1rc?t=81



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2021 03:03PM by Jock_rst.

Hi,

nice and aggressive! I like the yellow accents, improves visibility quite a bit

If you wouldn't have pointed it out, I would probably have missed the issue, in the video.

Don't ease off the collective, always keep drag/torque

Did your changes make any difference, or was stock just always a bit better?
I'm always curious, we have so many in the wild, but there is not much in-depth feedback (but complaints about the tail, but they are also not as common as you might think ...).

Keep enjoying it!

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Stock settings is ok for me =)

But tail is sleeping time to time on backward manoeuvres. It's depends on wind and current collective management. But if i choose between Antigravity and TALY my vote for TALY.

I too vote for adding TALY to the Logo 200. If the guys at OMP figured out how to add TALY, I am sure the guys at Mikado can catch up or even exceed the OMP TALY feature, if they make it a priority.

johnahamelv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I too vote for adding TALY to the Logo 200. If
> the guys at OMP figured out how to add TALY, I am
> sure the guys at Mikado can catch up or even
> exceed the OMP TALY feature, if they make it a
> priority.


TALY implemented in the open source Rotor Flight FBL so long time. I don't clue why Mikado still not add TALY in the Neo software.