Future Firmware to deal with EVO sensitivity issues?

Uli, Eddie, Rainier

I am positive by now you all know some people are struggling with issues as it pertains to the new sensors in the EVO FBL unit. Issue being how much more sensitive the sensor are in comparison to the NEO units. This has created negative chatter, and also people looking outside of their previous favourite choice of being Vbar.

I have many friends globally who have been reaching out to me to share some experiences in which I want to share with you here. These are experienced pilots, some professional competition pilots, experienced very much with using Vbar and long time users of the NEO we have had success with for many years now.

With Nitro helis especially such as XL Power NME 700 nitro, Tron Nitron 90, Raw 90 nitro and such they have stated they can not even use the EVO, even with the lowest 144hz settings and gains super low, they get twitching and crazy action on head and tail. They have tried zeal tape, multiple tapes nothing works for them. On of course other NON Mikado electrics as well this has been found that in some cases a thicker tape as I mentioned sometime ago will help them and be mostly normal, on others again some very bad flight issues showing again even on very lowest frame rates and settings as they were default on NEO.

So my questions is, can you create a firm ware update that will perhaps make options to reduce the actual sensitivites of these new sensors?

I know personally some folks who have given up, as they have perfect smooth helis (non Mikado) that have not been able to successfully get their helis to fly right, switched back to NEO and they are happy. This however does not solve future needs.

What I think in mind would work is if a user could choose following:

Option 1: NON Mikado Electric Option 2: NON Mikado Nitro/Gasser option to have somehow lower sensitivities to make the current EVO more flyable in many models. Or somehow (lower the sensitivity) across the entire range)?

As we know the NEO you are no longer producing due to availability of the sensors and such, therefore once NEOs run out globally through crashes and sales of used ones etc many will be left to go to other systems.

I for one love Vbar and have since it has been made, but something clearly needs to be done to address this, if it can in fact be addressed with firmware and tested with NON mikado helis it should be done, and I hope to see this looked into ASAP please and thank you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2023 07:54AM by OICU812.

Thanks for your report! We are aware that there are problems on Helis with very high vibration load on the EVO. Our own samples are not affected, so we only see whats reported from customers.
After some research in the last weeks, i was able to resproduce similar effects on my beefed up shaker, so i can quantify when it happens. It seems to be a resonance at 700-900 Hz in the range above 50G´s. This gets amplified depending on many components, like heli mechanics, mounting tape, case, board and sensor. So in some cases it can develop unwanted resonances. The outcome is a complete overload of the sensors MEMs structure, resulting in short erratic outputs.
We have developed solutions for this, and these are now tested. Early results look promising, but its not a sufficient sample yet. We will report back, as soon as we can draw a final conclusion, and what to do if your heli is affected, and you are unable to reduce vibrations the usual way.
Note: if EVO works with the same settings as NEO on the same heli, all is good. Then the Heli has just lower Vibrations, and the device is not affected.
BTW: NEO is still available as new device, and will be continued at least some time. There is a bit stock of NEO Sensors to allow this.

Its hard to belive, that there are Helis that have that violent vibrations with electric motors, only known from Gassers in the past. I really hope this gets at least addressed by heli constructors, to get it back down again to normal levels.

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2023 08:30PM by ulrich.

ulrich Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for your report! We are aware that there
> are problems on Helis with very high vibration
> load on the EVO. Our own samples are not affected,
> so we only see whats reported from customers.
> After some research in the last weeks, i was able
> to resproduce similar effects on my beefed up
> shaker, so i can quantify when it happens. It
> seems to be a resonance at 700-900 Hz in the range
> above 50G´s. This gets amplified depending on
> many components, like heli mechanics, mounting
> tape, case, board and sensor. So in some cases it
> can develop unwanted resonances. The outcome is a
> complete overload of the sensors MEMs structure,
> resulting in short erratic outputs.
> We have developed solutions for this, and these
> are now tested. Early results look promising, but
> its not a sufficient sample yet. We will report
> back, as soon as we can draw a final conclusion,
> and what to do if your heli is affected, and you
> are unable to reduce vibrations the usual way.
> Note: if EVO works with the same settings as NEO
> on the same heli, all is good. Then the Heli has
> just lower Vibrations, and the device is not
> affected.
> BTW: NEO is still available as new device, and
> will be continued at least some time. There is a
> bit stock of NEO Sensors to allow this.
>
> Its hard to belive, that there are Helis that have
> that violent vibrations with electric motors, only
> known from Gassers in the past. I really hope this
> gets at least addressed by heli constructors, to
> get it back down again to normal levels.

Thanks Urich, I am glad to hear you have an awareness and are working on this now. I do want to note that (other) manufacturers helis are not so bad that this is something to do with (THEM). We must be honest with ourselves as these new sensors in Evo simply are more advanced and are in fact different. Many of these (other) manufacturers helis fly fine with (NEO) without much issue or non, however not so on Evo. Therefore as you and the team are doing now, you find solutions to make the technology work best with the many helis out there. These other helis have not changed, they are not at unnacceptable vibration levels or bad construction, this is by FACT a change in technology rather.

Simply I wanted to speak for many and ensure that solutions were being worked on and that you and the team had full awareness. You have confirmed and acknowledged this now, so I thank you and look forward to what further solutions and adjustments you and the team make in days to come.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2023 09:09PM by OICU812.

Dont get me wrong.. my last sentence is just my personal opinion from a technical view. It is not something new. I would love to get awarness on this, since in my opinion a G load of 50g and more ist not desirable in a heli, and with some care it can be reduced by design. But thats a different topic...

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2023 10:29PM by ulrich.

ulrich Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dont get me wrong.. my last sentence is just my
> personal opinion from a technical view. It is not
> something new. I would love to get awarness on
> this, since in my opinion a G load of 50g and more
> ist not desirable in a heli, and with some care it
> can be reduced by design. But thats a different
> topic...


Understood and I get it, I have of course as you know had many Mikado helicopters, they are smooth and by design of plastic absorbing such vibrations even produced makes sense that they work so well. While business wise it would be excellent for Mikado if everyone only flew their helis, of course we all desire options to stay interested and this is acceptable to have many choices now. Please keep us informed as to testing and to solutions so that the EVO flybarless unit can be used as successful as the Neo has been across many platforms of all brands and models, thank you.

Hi,

please don't get me wrong writing this, and thank you for your kind and positive words!

What I experience, from the service point of view, where I get to see much, is this:

No matter if plastic or carbon/aluminum chassis, today's designers seem to have forgotten or never learned the most basic things, which have been common knowledge for long, in fact since the beginning of r/c helicoptering, or which have come up with evolution and changes along, and could be considered best practice.

To me, this is
. placement of receiver and flybarless, today often integrated—is up front close to or between motor, ESC, wiring there, also on ICE powered models, and close to the gearbox, really the best place? On some designs, even on a wobbly plastic extension?
. gearboxes—in times where you put loads of kWs of power through them, they have to be designed in a way so they're not just small and durable, but in a way that they run smoothly in all load situations. We've seen 100+ Gs of load, and without much in the way of 3D flying. This is positively put not desirable, in hard truth I'd dare say, it's not acceptable, no matter what electronics you use. It also puts wear on the mechanics proper, tail boom supports disintegrate, even tail booms break etc.
. rotor heads—is it really necessary to remove all dampening, usually required flapping and swivel joints, replace it with hard plastic sleeves?
. possible ESD issues—why, in 2023, there are new designs coming up with plastic (insulating) sleeves, on belt driven tails ... good idea, when it comes to dampening, easing a predetermined breaking point, allowing for easier adjustment, but then you have to think one step further ... and even if the components used in general are theoretically conducting, there often is no safe electrical connection between the ends of a Van-de-Graaff generator aka belt drive?
. basic electrical things, like, is the power supply still up to the task, if you increase the load, with more powerful servos, or with squeezing out more power out of existing servos, by driving them harder and faster? Positive: afaik there's at least Futaba who advertise servos which can be used with BEC (lower power version) or with a battery only (higher power version).

If you're in the business almost since the beginning of flybarless at least, and in r/c helicopters and modeling much much longer, almost all of what's happening now feels like history repeating.

The customer, the hobbyist, often only learns the hard way. The information is available, but it's not built-in, you often only get it too late, and hopefully speaking to people who know the tricks of the trade :-/ and then, you've already lost money, faith, and fun.

To me, it makes hardly any difference what helicopter people enjoy flying. We provide one portion of the electronics to bring out the best out of them (I know, my opinion may be biased ;-). But it's sad to (fore)see that certain things will happen (again). You look at something, on trade fairs, in ads, and think, oh my, there's work coming my way ...

We're in a situation now (again) where we have to try and fortify our product against the forces of nature, also because the current sensors are different in a way we could hardly anticipate, from data, and from our own test results before. And that's our job, not lamenting.

About testing, one example, one of our former team pilots who's still flying VBar Control, but different helicopters—helicopters where sensitivity issues have been reported—afaik has at least five EVOs in use, and he's just a happy camper. I have no idea what's different there, but with that, you check off one thing off your list.

Unfortunately, bringing up painful subjects during that time can be mistaken as diverting from one's own subject, or putting one's own brand over others.
But as Uli wrote above, we're aware, and we are working on it, while we're not participating in discussions on the net.

Wishful thinking ... if manufacturers of all the other components involved in the complex machine we call a model helicopter would do the same, our hobby could only change for the better.
Some already did or do, like SAB with their latest FBL support, and later gearbox designs, anti static on their small birds, and their latest lines of products.
Long story short, and to close the circle, a new model came up some years ago, suddenly lots of issues were reported, something was learned from it by communication between manufacturers, and almost as suddenly, the reports ceased almost to zero again.

Let's make that happen again, with whatever solution will evolve from our efforts.

—Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Thanks Eddi,

I can only reiterate what you say in my experience with support for the US market. Only a few and nearly all on the same make of helicopter that reported problems with Vbar Evo, the 2mm tape and latest update seems to have calmed down the situation except on a few nitro helicopters.

Cheers

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

As a long time user and supporter of mikado Vbar , logos , as well as other brands and our hobby overall I would have to disagree with this mentality of our helis don’t vibrate and that’s all we tested.

One way of looking at it is I flew neos for 7 years without strange gyro feedbacks and now with a newer generation gyro and processor it’s confusing vibration with intended flight ?

Take a step back another way of looking at the last three fun flys I went to with many registered pilots I didn’t even see a single Logo. (For the record I have owned every logo twice or three times)

The testing and r&d time can be better invested on machines that vibrate more yet everyone flies.

Thanks

Just going to chime in here also. I have been holding off placing a new NEO EVO on my helis, but I am not sure this is a "brand" issue. I have had Mikado airframes vibrate more than other brands in the past. But at the same time, I have had Mikado helis be smoother than others. The ultimate point here is that, there will always be vibration from the rotor head. Once you ask for aggressive angle of attacks from a blade and you induce flapping, the rotor head is then "unbalanced" and this will always cause vibration.

In terms of the "rigid plastic dampers", this may be a change that some do not like but it does provide a much "tighter" feel in the rotor head. Certain companies use POM, which has damping characteristics more relatable to standard O-ring head dampers than the old fully plastic DFC head dampers that we saw come about many years ago.

As far as my main issue, I don't wish to repair a helicopter on my personal dime if the problem can be avoided until it is resolved with filtering of some sort. Nitro's are always going to produce more vibration (this is what I plan to put my NEO EVO in first) and I am concerned with how it will behave. I believe in the team and hope that it can be remedied soon. I hate to see any bashing of my Mikado family. Time to bust out the black sensor foam tape.

Excellent and informative thread, suscribed!

Hello,
so when can we expect an update/new Infos about this sensitiv Issue?

Well - as Shawn Scott (OICU812 here) initiated the whole thread - i have emailed him a few days ago for probably some assistance, assuming he has such a heli and as he was in our test team years ago he would like to check a few things for us.

Unfortunately i did not get any response. Maybe the email got lost in spam folder or so - Shawn if you read this - please check or get in touch at vstabi (at) mikado-heli.de for a bit more information.

It is really difficult for us to get hands on trustworthy and feedback-willing testers with such obviously critical models. We have of course some but it sometimes ends up in lack of qualified response. We are working on this as best as we can but it still needs time.

On the other hand - the heli manufacturers should do this too. Do they? Do they know? Did anyone claim there about far to stiff frames and unneeded vibrations?

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2023 11:17AM by RV.

Hello,

I use this thread to try to share what I've seen with my EVO mounted on a Kraken 700 elec (first gen). I tried several mounting (2 tape, 1 tape, with damper 55shore, 65shore, rigid mount) without success.

My issue always occurs on the Tail with a very weird behavior (never seen such behavior before).

With damper (55 or 65 shore):
- At 1700 / 1900 I had issue solved by adjusting the gain and precomp but it was complicated to tune the precomps.
- Issue occurs when exceeding 2000rpm but more on hard movement (hard flip, block, ...)

Rigid mount without damper with 1 tape (tested this morning):
- 1700rpm and 1900 rpm seems to be OK and better than with damper
- In statio, switching from 1900 to 2100 ends with a lost of control of the heli at the tail and was starting to shake at the cyclic.
The behavior was really weird and was not the same movement when you have too much gain (quick small oscillation) or to low gain (low oscillation but larger).
The tail suddenly turned at -30deg, then +45deg, then -35deg then +20, etc.... without logic, it was more a movement similar to someone making random move on the rudder stick from left to right. It looks like the vbar was unable to know which tail position he had to target, or I would say the position to target was always moving quickly.
Also my cyclic was started to enter in resonance.
I had finally to land with a hard autorot :-(

Don't know it helps but just wanted to share it.

RV I have PM'd you with up to date email and contact info, also emailed you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2023 09:01PM by OICU812.

Got it ;-)

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/2482

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de

The future batch's of the EVO's will include this mod? TIA .. How I know if i bought a new EVO include this new mod? ..TIA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2023 08:27PM by msallua.

ulrich Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/2482

Uli, thanks to your team for a job well done.
It's great that you managed to find a solution.
A couple of questions. Is there a preference for using a type of glue?
How much should the sensor be covering by glue?
Will this affect the warranty?

Regards, Iurii

We use standard Hotglue, about 160C melting. Check out the Video for how to apply.

https://www.vstabi.info/de/EVO_high_vib_mod

Of course it will not affect the warranty if done like shown in the video. If you are uncomfortable, choose one of the other options in the above link, we will be happy to help.

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de

Hallo, womit habt Ihr die besten Erfahrungen gemacht? Heißkleber oder UHU-Schnellfest, bzw. Epoxy-Kleber? Liebe Grüsse, Robert

Hello Uli,

to be honest, even if the solution works well, it looks a bit unprofessionell.
Is there a plan to create a more profesionell solution?

kind regards
Stefan

Well, its a optimal solution for make it work on high vibration helis, so imo the look is secondary. I really dont want to trade performance for look. If applied correctly, you cannot see anything from the outside. We will see which material is used in production.
Potting components is a common method to change mechanical properties of the component, case and board. Atm its a plus, that it can be done by yourself. If you have any doubt, use one of the other options of the announcement.

The good thing is, that i now have quite a lot of datapoints from testers and customers, and i can quantify possible solutions with the lab equipment. So we will look for other solutions in the future and compare them to the current one. Nonetheless the current solution is very hard to beat!

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2023 07:16PM by ulrich.

Ich hatte alles ausprobiert, Uhu schnellfest oder 5min Epoxy und Heisskleber. Bei den Messwerten war kein Unterschied zu erkennen. Heisskleber ist am leichtesten zu verarbeiten, und daher die beste Lösung zum Selbermachen, wenn man schnell wieder fliegen gehen möchte.

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de

Das evo hat von Haus mit dem dünnen Plastikgehäuse einfach wenig Masse, und schwingt deshalb gerne mit
Ein etwas schwereres Alu Gehäuse und ich meine, nicht das von Neo das ist auch zu leicht, und Tesa Spiegel Klebeband würde den Vibrationen auch entgegenwirken
S
Viele andere Hersteller packen ihr FBL auch in Alu Gehäuse und das nicht gerade in leichte Gehause

Ich hab mal das AC3-X gewogen, mit dem ich nie irgendwelche Vibrationsprobleme hatte

Ein FBL so viel Geld das man noch mit Heißkleber füllen muss, wirft ein schlechtes Bild auf das System
Wirkt für mich als Notlösung, und alles andere als professionell
Das ist eben nicht genug Real getestet worden, und es gibt nun mal Helis die etwas mehr Vibrationen aufweisen, und rauer laufen, das sollte auch abgedeckt werden



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2023 08:40PM by Tomislav H..

Bitte nicht mit Heisskleber füllen! Nur ein wenig in die Ecke, so wie im Video. Und niemand MUSS das machen! In diesem Falle bitte die Option nehmen das Gerät einzusenden.

Das mit dem Gehäuse hatte ich ja in meinem Aufsatz ausführlich abgehandelt, man darf nicht den Fehler machen zu glauben, das bestimmte Dinge der Grund für die Effekte sind (common Sense). Man muss es messen. Und logischerweise habe ich etliche Gehäuseformen auf dem 3D Drucker ausprobiert, bis zum Vollklotz. Die Annahme mehr Gewicht und weiches Tape bringt was stimmt für Frequenzen bis ein paar 100Hz. Darüber passieren andere Dinge, das hab ich ja auch erwähnt.

Das unsere Testhelis nicht rau genug laufen, muss ich leider bestätigen. Und Toleranzen bei den Sensoren gibt es nun mal auch.

Wir bleiben natürlich dran, aber damit die EVO auf stärker vibrierenden Helis sofort einsetzbar ist, gibts den Mod zum selbermachen.

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de

Quote:

Ein etwas schwereres Alu Gehäuse und ich meine, nicht das von Neo das ist auch zu leicht, und Tesa Spiegel Klebeband würde den Vibrationen auch entgegenwirken

Glaub mir, Uli hat dazu extra einen Teststand gebaut. In den Bereichen in welchen sich diese Geschichte hier bewegt war mit diesen Methoden nichts auszurichten.

Das schwerere Gehäuse hätte nichts daran geändert.

Hast Du den Artikel gelesen wo Uli das aufbereitet hat?

https://www.vstabi.info/de/node/2485

Im Übrigen ist der Vergleich mit dem AC-3X schon was differenziert zu betrachten - damals hatten wir unsere Sensoren (dieselben damals) auch in einen Alublock vergossen ;-)

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2023 10:36PM by RV.

What is this option 2 hardware upgrade? New pcb board or hot glue applied at the factory?

As written in the detailed article here:

https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/2482

The maximum effect is with glue.
So we will do this at the factory also and re-check the EVO of course.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

Für Posts und Antworten bitte einen PC und eine richtige Taststaur benutzen sowie alle Fragen vollständig abarbeiten. Nehmt Euch Zeit, beantwortet Rückfragen in Ruhe und vollständig.
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**Update**

With the models I tested with hot glue modification I now have logged over 40 flights with zero issues. I have also been in steady communication with a few folks who had nitros that they deemed prior to modification as un-flyable, now all are working well and they are pleased.

For the meanwhile there should be no intimidation to do this, as it simply does work. Thanks to the Mikado team for continuously and openly addressing this.

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

The Analysis of all this was quite surprising for me, i learned very important lessons about whats going on. I can well understand, that this looks intimidating, but it fixes a weakness of the new sensor type, making it a better choice than NEOs IMU.

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de