Evo vs Neo FBL: Mounting Tape Discussion and found differences

Ulrich, Rainier, Eddie,

Now that more Evo units are hitting customers hands and helis I think this is important to bring up right now. As always I have my ear to ground across alot of forums, and I have also an Evo to and done some tests and some conversation to share with you.

As you recall many years ago that when we used remote gyros connected to main mikado box (pre-silverline) we had a yellow/white double sided tape that was 3mm roughly and 70-75 durometer guessing. Then Silverline came Mikado went with different tape as previous tape did not work so good. Anyhow then neo came and another small revision as the thin 3M tape with higher stiffer durometer worked best it seemed and only few models such thin tape gave issue.

Here we are now today enter Evo, faster hardware, better sensors, but also more sensitive to vibrations. But same tape as we have had for years with Neo, which IMO needs to be looked at and possibly a change again with the changes Mikado has done.

Some users of Evo even with same exact settings as Neo on same helicopter have been telling me they see oscillations on the disc and twitching on tail, and so I did some my own tests and experienced same on my XL Power 700. The NEO/Evo is mounted up front fairly closer to motor and main drive train then many models. However again note that this was perfect fine flying with NEO and its supplied tape. In experiment of settings in Evo could get it lower a little visually but having to lower gain on main disc and initiate some shiver value. But never clean look in air or feel, in fact abit worse overall sluggish feel experience.

So then to try as some other friends had experienced this, try a different tape 3M (9448A) tape, black in color, seems to be same durometer by feel, but is approx 1-1.2mm thicker then supplied Mikado tape. Viola!! no more side twitch on tail, no more weird stuff on disc. Then in fact can go past original main disc and tail gains and working 200% better. Now Evo works much better.

So I want to ensure my thoughts are this is not band aid but rather because of these new sensors and indication, and I would like you to look into on your end. I seen between Neo to Evo on same tape vibration #s that were up over 30% minimum, on same heli within a 15 minute span of test, so this says Evo is in a way (seeing more), and it affects it far more then the experiences with NEO.

I suspect highly in your testing that Mikado used Mikado Logo helicopters which have some of lowest vibration levels of all helis with plastic to absorb and such you may not have seen what I am speaking of? However so may helis now as you know, are carbon fiber, VERY rigid frame and rigid head works and I sense many people will flood this and other forums in confusion as to how an upgrade Evo is giving them frustration and a bad experience and it will very, very likely be the tape.

I now have communicated with over a half a dozen people who have done this tape change (stock supplied to 3M 9448A) and been successful and now happy. The included tape that worked so well with Neo in my opinion is surely not the right/best tape to work with Evo.

BUT it begs the question is what we have found this 3M (9448A) tape in fact the best?, or is there even better tape that can work more optimum with Evo FBL unit?

If you consider when Futaba made their CGY 760 fbl system they had to go with a softer durometer and thicker tape as well to have the gyro see only what it needed to and to not over react with higher frame rates and faster sensors. Ikon even as well has made tape revisions based on testing 2 times since they created and evolved.

I think we are there now with Evo and this needs consideration.

Thank you,

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, Flybars & Frequency Pins...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2023 11:39PM by OICU812.

I have tested the VBar Evo on all my Henseleit helicopters and even on the TDRII which have some of the stiffest frames and mechanics, and have had zero issues with the supplied tape from Mikado. In testing I have always started with the same setup as the Neo and then progressively increased the cyclic servo update rate to what the servos can accept and found no wobbles or "shiver" from the main rotor. On all my Henseleit models the SHIVER setting are at zero.

I suppose every helicopter will differ in what is needed and thanks for sharing this with us.

VControl, VBar on all.
TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS and TDSF
Peter

Hi,

to me it sounds perfectly reasonable that different tapes make (even a huge?) a difference, on different helis.

Technically, as I understand, the stiffest possible (!) connection to the airframe provides the best results, between the sensors feeling the slightest motion, and providing sufficient decoupling/de-tuning from vibration/oscillations, from different sources.
Best result would be a combination where you can CA the unit to the frames, without ill effects. Impossible to achieve ...

On flybarless systems without or with different built-in filtering, different form factors, weight, internal layout, it's obviously different.

Back in the day, we supplied the thicker 3M tape (2 mm) with VBar Blueline and mini, and the stiffer tape (1.2 mm) with VBar Silverline, and nowadays also NEO and EVO.

Sometimes, the 2 mm might be the better choice, or an even softer tape like Zeal, or strips, or a frame-shaped tape, instead of an all-over tape.

So if fellow pilots run into such issues, imo we can recommend trying different tapes, even suggest certain types/brands, but must also tell them that using higher frequencies is a tuning process, not a fire (set to maximum)-and-forget thing, no matter how.

I'd be curious what works on which helicopters, with which equipment. But since this information is spread all over the internet, it's hard to come by, sift through, and compile a list.

And even then, there will be pilots who find the supplied tape just fine, and others who have issues, also pilots who adjust the parameters so it works, and others who max out and then try and find the corresponding tape. I guess that's just in the nature of things ...

Best,

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Vinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have tested the VBar Evo on all my Henseleit
> helicopters and even on the TDRII which have some
> of the stiffest frames and mechanics, and have had
> zero issues with the supplied tape from Mikado. In
> testing I have always started with the same setup
> as the Neo and then progressively increased the
> cyclic servo update rate to what the servos can
> accept and found no wobbles or "shiver" from the
> main rotor. On all my Henseleit models the SHIVER
> setting are at zero.
>
> I suppose every helicopter will differ in what is
> needed and thanks for sharing this with us.

I believe that as well simply because the TDR again very similar to Logos in sense that they are very smooth and unlikely to produce much natural vibrations. Curious though have you directly compared what shows on vibration screens cause even with no changes and such, you will see the Evo (sees) more and your numbers will be up in comparison to Neo.

Eddi E. aus G. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi,
>
> to me it sounds perfectly reasonable that
> different tapes make (even a huge?) a difference,
> on different helis.
>
> Technically, as I understand, the stiffest
> possible (!) connection to the airframe provides
> the best results, between the sensors feeling the
> slightest motion, and providing sufficient
> decoupling/de-tuning from vibration/oscillations,
> from different sources.
> Best result would be a combination where you can
> CA the unit to the frames, without ill effects.
> Impossible to achieve ...
>
> On flybarless systems without or with different
> built-in filtering, different form factors,
> weight, internal layout, it's obviously
> different.
>
> Back in the day, we supplied the thicker 3M tape
> (2 mm) with VBar Blueline and mini, and the
> stiffer tape (1.2 mm) with VBar Silverline, and
> nowadays also NEO and EVO.
>
> Sometimes, the 2 mm might be the better choice, or
> an even softer tape like Zeal, or strips, or a
> frame-shaped tape, instead of an all-over tape.
>
> So if fellow pilots run into such issues, imo we
> can recommend trying different tapes, even suggest
> certain types/brands, but must also tell them that
> using higher frequencies is a tuning process, not
> a fire (set to maximum)-and-forget thing, no
> matter how.
>
> I'd be curious what works on which helicopters,
> with which equipment. But since this information
> is spread all over the internet, it's hard to come
> by, sift through, and compile a list.
>
> And even then, there will be pilots who find the
> supplied tape just fine, and others who have
> issues, also pilots who adjust the parameters so
> it works, and others who max out and then try and
> find the corresponding tape. I guess that's just
> in the nature of things ...
>
> Best,
>
> Eddi



Eddi,

Again note these observations were with default (same as Neo) settings, NO increase to swash hz, gains or anything at all, so the Evo sees more and models (not german boutique) or logos are seeing this and in some cases showing what appears to be negative result.

With conversations of friends and folks I know to have changed tape seen these oscillations without modifying settings and only changed from Neo to Evo on following helicopters so far

XL Power 700 NME
Tron 700 (even with dampened plate)
Raw 700 with and without dampened fbl plate
Oxy 5 Meg
Protos 700

So quite a few so far,


Anyhow I guess at a minimum we should all know and understand that this new FBL unit may indeed require a different tape if they experience oddities before even adjusting when all they have done is a simple switch of Neo to Evo.

Hi again,

interesting. Could be that this is a particularity of the newer sensor elements, but that's beyond my understanding

Thing is, even if VBar Control/VBar EVO pilots test on other platforms than LOGO—not so many, I dare guess—if they don't experience or report anything odd, or adjust for it without reporting, there's nothing to learn from it, during testing.

Once the product is out in the wild, naturally, there's plenty of input

It would be great to channel that information here, so we can work on it, learn from it, give good advice.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Wow good I saw this , was expiriencing some wierd tail behaveir with my Raw 420 with the EVO and getting lots of ''Extreme Vibration Level '' , then I swaped back the NEO and the extreme vibration are almost to non

LÄNKTEXT

Well, its very hard to tell! I just recently finished some Vibration testing on my vibration test stand to get more insights. As for a general summary, there is no real difference between NEOs and EVOs Sensor. In fact i can find some resonances of the sensing element, that may cause some effects, but this happens at ridicoulous high vibration levels (beyond 80g) and high frequencies (NEO:600Hz=36000rpm, EVO:800Hz=48000rpm). It differs on the same type between single parts as well (+-50Hz).
It may indeed be the case, that some of the mechanics are in this vibration range, causing this resonance to appear. This is generally very bad, but it may be the case. Usually you then will see the logfile flooded with "extreme Vibration Level" Messages documenting that the sensor has hard times to see the reality.
I could not find any odd behaviour at frequencies below 200Hz at all, up to the destruction of the board. I have to add, that i only test a small sample of EVOs. So my conclusions may not apply to every NEO/EVO!
So the thicker tape may help indeed in these cases. It shall not make problems as long as it is not super-duper soft.

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de

ulrich Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, its very hard to tell! I just recently
> finished some Vibration testing on my vibration
> test stand to get more insights. As for a general
> summary, there is no real difference between NEOs
> and EVOs Sensor. In fact i can find some
> resonances of the sensing element, that may cause
> some effects, but this happens at ridicoulous high
> vibration levels (beyond 80g) and high frequencies
> (NEO:600Hz=36000rpm, EVO:800Hz=48000rpm). It
> differs on the same type between single parts as
> well (+-50Hz).
> It may indeed be the case, that some of the
> mechanics are in this vibration range, causing
> this resonance to appear. This is generally very
> bad, but it may be the case. Usually you then will
> see the logfile flooded with "extreme Vibration
> Level" Messages documenting that the sensor has
> hard times to see the reality.
> I could not find any odd behaviour at frequencies
> below 200Hz at all, up to the destruction of the
> board. I have to add, that i only test a small
> sample of EVOs. So my conclusions may not apply to
> every NEO/EVO!
> So the thicker tape may help indeed in these
> cases. It shall not make problems as long as it is
> not super-duper soft.

Interesting Uli, appreciate your curiousity on this. The log files I have seen myself and some from others do not appear generally bad or worse then prior. Only again with same settings across to evo some odd disc and tail twitch type tendacies. For now this tape has settled situation. When I get warmer weather, more Evos I surely myself will test more and report back.