logo 200 tail blows out

i just bought a logo 200 and bound to my touch radio and no matter what bank i’m in the tail blows out badly just on collective pitch pumps tail spins clockwise 180 deg most of the time. i have done a new setup to make sure it’s up to date and still blows out.

this is on express not pro

Hi,

why do you do such things?
Just because, because I can, because I do it always, because I want to check the tail, because I want to see if I can make it pop ... is nothing but an excuse

Just fly the machine, this up-and-down stuff is not even a competition maneuver.

A particularity about motor driven tails is, they have power only one direction, rely on counter-torque the other direction, and if you mess with that, the tail will blow out, as simple as that.

If you have torque on the main rotor, you can do all maneuvers, and with reversals.
Ever did a piro tic toc loop w/ reversals with a micro? Do it
But particularly if you instantly take away _full_ torque, which, at that time, is countered by almost full tail motor throttle, the gyro can only stop tail motor and wait what happens, and eventually the tail will spin.

Force and counterforce. Physics.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

I don’t know what that was all about but for one if I can’t do a simple thing as pitch pumps with out the tail blowing out why would I have any confidence and flying it in any other maneuver if it can’t even do the simplest thing.

but anyway i got some REAL help to try and fix this problem and it turns out my tail blade was on backwards. i will be trying it later on today and see it it fixed it but i’m pretty sure it will.

Hi,

OK, tail blade reversed is something my crystal ball did not reveal
That will possibly fix it to some large degree.
But still, there are situations where the motor driven tail has only little authority, without torque supporting it.

Apart from that ... please don't get me wrong, I don't want to come across rude, but if one measures the model's performance by such moves, a model like it will possibly not be the one for him.

I've seen it do a full set maneuvers routine for Global 3D, I've seen it do all the complex stuff, and continuously, including piro globes with reversals.
I've never seen these maneuvers flown with confidence, and continuously with any other mini/micro heli.
I'm not proficient enough myself, not in the slightest, granted.
But, if the tail kicks in straight full-stick up/downs, if one takes away the counterforce abruptly, can't be helped.
If it blows out when one unloads the disc abruptly, in backwards maneuvers and when it's coming slightly on a slip, in the slipstream, can't be helped.
One can blame it on the model, or one can blame it on the flybarless or it's settings, but in the end, physics define the limits for both.
That's all I'm trying to say and these are things good to know, good to bear in mind, as not to be surprised in the wrong situation.

Now enjoy your 200—in my opinion one of the best / most fun helis to come by these days

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Hi Eddy,

I have the same problem sometimes where the tail cant hold and kicks 180 degrees. I am not doing a fast pump or crazy 3D. Switched the tail motor for a new motor and the same happens. It does happen in somewhat more windy situations with the tail in the wind. My friend has a M2 and it never happens to him. Any suggestions where to look at? Is this vbar related?

Regards,

Tom

TomRSV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Eddy,
>
> I have the same problem sometimes where the tail
> cant hold and kicks 180 degrees. I am not doing a
> fast pump or crazy 3D. Switched the tail motor for
> a new motor and the same happens. It does happen
> in somewhat more windy situations with the tail in
> the wind. My friend has a M2 and it never happens
> to him. Any suggestions where to look at? Is this
> vbar related?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom

Same here, direct drive fixed pitch tail motor. M2 has TALY feature - when main rotor is unloaded, then rpms increased to holding boom. Logo 200 has no TALY feature, so currently is not possible to fix it.

Hi Tom,

sounds lame, but the best thing you can do is, adjust your flying a bit to the characteristics of the model, and all is well. Or as good as can be

—Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

TALY is an open source feature. Just strange why Mikado still not implemented in the Logo 200 Neo mini firmware.

https://github.com/rotorflight

file governor.c

// Tail Torque Assist
if (mixerMotorizedTail() && govTTAGain != 0) {
float TTA = govTTAGain * biquadFilterApply(&govTTAFilter, mixerGetInput(MIXER_IN_STABILIZED_YAW));
govTTAMull = constrainf(TTA, 0, govTTALimit) + 1.0f;
}
else {
govTTAMull = 1.0f;
}



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2022 03:16AM by Jock_rst.

Again lost tail autority today on fast backward after repairing my Logo 200 =( What the reason why Mikado won't add TALY feature?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2022 05:04PM by Jock_rst.

Hi,

the reason is quite complex. OMP has one non-updatable product, which has to work only on one platform, and they did, like, one thing right'er' than us, plus they don't really use a governor.
We have a product which is updatable, and which is used on all kinds of helicopters.
Making such a change to the tail control loop (which is a core feature and the same in _all_ NEOs around the world) would very likely mean (or at least bear the risk) that everybody who does _that_ update has to adjust his tail settings again, or run into unexpected issues. Even the majority who doesn't even know about it, or need it, ever.
Job-creation measure for me, because even if there was something to read up on, there would be why's.
All that just because of the comparatively limited number of pilots who want or need it.

Please don't take it personally, it simply makes little sense to us, to put much effort into what seems like side issues, while there are more pressing issues, among other projects.

Now, more constructive-minded:

We came across a macrocell-solution, which could or could not improve things.

I have not tried it, because I'm not the kind of pilot who gets his 200 into this situation (I'm just flying too lamely ... not what you might think, that I think myself being a better pilot ... very much to the contrary).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jrnkwvFCHM

Not many people seem to have watched it so far, and only one asked back.

I think that's feasible, and it might even help, but I'd insert a Multiplexer so I can switch off the mixing in Motor OFF and IDLE position, only active in RUN position.

Maybe another one, so I can enable or disable it at the flick of a switch.

I can not tell if it really helps, and with which values.
Very likely, it depends on the pilot and what he does on the sticks, what he needs.

With the original Taly, with KD's style of flying, after a couple of maneuvers, throttle kind of stuck at full throttle, because there was never enough time for the rpm, increased in many short bursts, to bleed off again.
It can be uncomfortable if the model, in the end, runs at 7,500 1/min if you don't want that.
And there's no limiter or brake.

I can not tell what the Governor makes of it. It will work against that 'abuse', obviously, you also see it in the video, log file entries 'Lower Limit'.
This can help, but it can also change things to the worse.

So ... try and error.

If it works, it works, if not ... back to square one.

Another approach could then be, use throttle curves instead of the Governor, plus mixing, to take the Governor out of the equation.

—Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Eddi E. aus G. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi,

> Another approach could then be, use throttle
> curves instead of the Governor, plus mixing, to
> take the Governor out of the equation.
>
> —Eddi

Thanks Eddie for detailed explanation best as always. I know about Macrocells system and think it's really powerfull feature. Now i have reason and will try programming it!

Btw, using MacroCells is not reduce overall Neo performance and framerate?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2022 01:51PM by Jock_rst.

Hi,

technically, yes, but throttle (ESC) always outputs 70 Hz, so it makes no difference here.

Kind regards

Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

Just impressed with Macrocells. Really really powerful feature!

Here is a new video about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih13oCQ8gMA

greeting
Dietmar