Failsafe on v-bar v5

Hi All,

Just a quick question about the fail safe on the v5 blue line vbar. When I bind my transmitter I leave the throttle stick low.

After the bind process has been done and when I test the failsafe the throttle goes to idle position as expected but the all other controls go to the centre position. Including the collective.!!!!!

Is this correct ??????!!

Which firmware version do you have?

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Hi Rainer,

Firmware of the controller is 5.0.11 and PC software is 5.0.12

Cheers

Matt

OK, i don't know exactly, but please do a online Update first and re-Check

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

Für Posts und Antworten bitte einen PC und eine richtige Taststaur benutzen sowie alle Fragen vollständig abarbeiten. Nehmt Euch Zeit, beantwortet Rückfragen in Ruhe und vollständig.
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Thanks Rainer,

Will do that tomorrow night and let you know how I get on

Cheers

Matt

Hi Rainer,

I have updated my Vbar controller but still when I try the fail safe the collective goes to centre postion instead of holding last position. This is after I have tried rebinding the model.

Attached is my post update file

Cheers

Matt

OK, for understanding:

We do all to the position that we learn during the binding procedure. So normally keep all centered, motor off, bind.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

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Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

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Hi Rainer,

The reason why I raised this post is because the controls in a failsafe condition shouldn't go back to a centered position. In the event of a radio failure (failsafe) you need the controls to hold their last position and return the throttle /motor to an idle state.

This would become a dangerous position to be in, as a out control model that is heading along the same path is easier to avoid than a model that changes its path.

So to sum it, IMO the failsafe should hold the last know flight control positions and return the Throttle/ESC to idle position.


Does this sound correct??

That was a endless discussion here and at the end we decided to handle the failsave this way. Who tells us that the last reiceved command in this situation was intended by the pilot and not faulty?

Zero collective, all commands straight forward, Motor off.

The "right" failsave depends always from the situation you may need it of course. The only thing for sure is to turn the motor completely off. The rest ... may be right, may be not.

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

Für Posts und Antworten bitte einen PC und eine richtige Taststaur benutzen sowie alle Fragen vollständig abarbeiten. Nehmt Euch Zeit, beantwortet Rückfragen in Ruhe und vollständig.
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Will test it ASAP

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

Für Posts und Antworten bitte einen PC und eine richtige Taststaur benutzen sowie alle Fragen vollständig abarbeiten. Nehmt Euch Zeit, beantwortet Rückfragen in Ruhe und vollständig.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Für Einzelkommunikation bitte ausschließlich Email verwenden! - PN, Messenger, Chat usw. werden nicht bearbeitet.
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Thanks Rainer,

I have been witness to a failsafe system that centered all the controls. It really was pretty scary!!!

Is there anyway that this might be able to become user defined in the settings?

Hi.

Can you explain what happened there?

With throttle cut and stopping rotation in all axis, also taking acceleration out of the equation by centering collective, the heli should fall down where it is, with the attitude it has in this moment, or going ballistic the direction it's flying in this moment.

With hold, no rotation will be stopped (e. g. tail still rotating, keeping doing piro-flips for example without the collective management but with slowing rotors, or keeping on rolling, or doing loops of infinity if the controls are in the adequate position), it's imo less predictable than going down like thrown away.

Even going "hovering collective" will be nice when flying skids down, when flying inverted it will suck the heli onto the deck like THAT!

— Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

The instance I saw was the heli came in for an inverted dive as it was just being pulled out the radio lost comms with the model. Instead of the heli going in the same direction (a little negative pitch to pull out of the dive) the model pitched fairly volently back towards the pilot (zero collective)

I think holding the flight controls is a better solution and bringing the power to zero

> Even going "hovering collective" will be nice when
> flying skids down, when flying inverted it will
> suck the heli onto the deck like THAT!
>
> — Eddi


In this case, if you were hovering inverted you would have for instance -6 of pitch on. If you lost radio comms and quickly returned the pitch to zero the heli would drive into the ground.

If you held the pitch and cut the power the damage would be far less.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2010 11:28PM by mattie-lodge.

Yep, sure, in this example.

But ... keeping collective on hold even if it was full tilt in a tic-toc towards the pilot? Sure it will slow down remarkably without power, but not as fast as the pilot reverses stick or "collective zero" by fail safe.

I'd say: depends. I guess we'll both find loads of examples to underline our point.

I'm with you: if it was possible to let the pilot decide, without a great effort of programming, it would be an option.
More scaring to me is that many-many people don't seem to understand fail safe or how to make proper use of it ... but that's an other topic

— Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

I agree with Eddi and re-checked it.

Center on the sticks and motor off is it - at least at the moment.

The difficult thing is ... how to get a DX6i into bind mode with throttle hold/cut - it won't work together with the binding procedure on this TX. So it is needed to use the throttle hold/cut a brief moment after starting the bind sequence on the TX ;-)

But ... if you want to know which of all possible failsaves would be the best for the situation you may need it ... you need a in-flight-glass-bowl in the Vbar ;-(

So ... thats what i state previously ... a endless discussion, we hat this internally about one year ago ;-)

regards (EN) / Gruss (DE)

Rainer Vetter

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Posting and answering - please use a PC and a standard keyboard. Answer all questions fully, take the needed time, don't forget probably requested attachments.

Für Posts und Antworten bitte einen PC und eine richtige Taststaur benutzen sowie alle Fragen vollständig abarbeiten. Nehmt Euch Zeit, beantwortet Rückfragen in Ruhe und vollständig.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Für Einzelkommunikation bitte ausschließlich Email verwenden! - PN, Messenger, Chat usw. werden nicht bearbeitet.
For single user communication please send a email only! PM, Messenger, Chat etc. won't be read.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2010 11:40PM by RV.

I agree with the tic tok example above, however its not just the collective that goes to zero...everything does. This will effect the path that the model is following very quickly, surprising the pilot more than if just the throttle was bought back to zero only.

I take hold last command anytime, if otherwise it should only be via user configurable.

Last thing i would like is in a hurricane that heli coming at full speed, and straighen out due to swash level itself when i loose connection, coming right at me.
Uncommanded change is way more scary than just loss of control from a pilots perspective, at least thats how i feel.

I agree with Matt totally hold last position on everything but throttle which should go to idle i may be wrong but didn't v4 do this?

Please give us user defined option the thought of flying my 700e with a system that will throw zero position on controls in a failsafe scenario actually scares me spectrum didn't design their receivers to work this way for a very good reason



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/25/2010 06:16PM by ChrisB.

I would prefer engine off & "Hold last command" also.
I was disappointed to see all servos (except throttle) go to a pre-defined position on signal loss.

I hope you reconsider Uli.
At least allow the user to decide this.

Dennis.

Hi folks,

since this is all a bit theoretical, I made contact with the developer of Heli-X simulator if he could implement a user-configurable fail-safe simulation (he already provides a simple fail-safe simulation). He found it interesting and will look into it. So we can probably try out different scenarios soon

— Eddi

Born to fly ...
forced to work.

I think hold on the cyclics and pitch is the better choice as centering all. It will be included in the new firmware, and we will provide an update for other users as well. I did not find anybody that prefers centering, so i think we can generally swithc to "hold".
This applies to spektrum sat users, since in all other cases the failsave position will be delivered by the reciving unit (S-Bus too!)

so long ... Uli
http://www.vstabi.de



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2011 06:01PM by ulrich.

Thanks Uli

This is why I really like this product and the company mikado. You guys are really listening to us and taking our thoughts on board.

Thanks guys and girls

Cheers

Matt

mattie-lodge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is why I really like this product and the
> company mikado. You guys are really listening to
> us and taking our thoughts on board.
>
> Thanks guys and girls
>
> Cheers
>
> Matt


I agree, Always a bonus when the developers listen to the end user..

Awesome guy's, thank you.

Hi,

one more opinion: Your reasoning assumes that servos centered means zero pitch (if I understand it correctly).
But what happens in an asymmetric pitch setup (scale or camera ship)? If it's sitting on the ground and fail safe triggers, it might actually take off.

Personally, I'd tend towards "hold last position", because it causes the least confusion.